Yeah, right. Kashmir Issue was not supposed to be confused by fall of Dhaka also.
.
Following Voices in Pakistan have been voices of a few treasonous Indian Agents, right?
.
* The Voice of East Pakistani cause that resulted in formation of Bangladesh.
* The Voice of Mohajir Cause (they call themselves Mohajir so, we have every right to discriminate against them)
* The Voice of Baltistani cause
* The Voice of Saraiki cause (they were never State of Bahawalpur so, they have to remain as a part of Punjab though they do not speak Punjabi)
* The Voice of PushToon Cause (was voice Indian Agent Ghaffaar Khan and NWF Province was never a part of Afghanistan though everybody there speaks an Afghan Language).
* The Voice of Baluchi Cause. (Nobody owns Baluchistan and everybody there came from somewhere else so, we have to keep stealing Natural Resources of Baluchistan)
.
Only Punjabis have never committed treason in history of Pakistan though they were 'GhaDDaar' of Pakistan Movement because they had never wanted Pakistan. Punjab Assembly had told Viceroy that Jinnah does not represent them; Muslim League has never won more than one seat in Punjab and they do not want to be a part of Pakistan (Ref: 1. British Indian Govt. Documents, 2. All India Radio in 1940's, 3. All Newspapers of India).
Now the same Punjabi GhaDDaar keep deciding, who is 'GhaDDaar' of Pakistan again and again. .
.
Are they now going to start saying, they had not invaded Baluchistan in 1948 and have quashed last 4 rebellions there?
Were all those thousands of dead, ... a few Baluchis Sardars and Tribal Chieftains?
Were a million Bengalis, ... a few Awami League Leaders?
Were 15,000 Urdu Speaking, ... a few MQM Ghoondaas?
.
I am for 'rights of determination of all nations', not only Kashmiris. Lets have a Referendum in whole Pakistan also and see, who wants to remain enslaved of expansionist, cruel, corrupt, lying, cheating, backstabbing, bigots, the Punjabis, who's Military and Police has killed many times more Moslims in East Pakistan and West Pakistan than Indian Military.
Would have Afghans lost 2 million lives if Pak Military had not become Agent of USA in 1979 and then had not continued its meddling in Domestic Affairs of Afghanistan for the last 32 years?
There would have been no Pakistan left if India did, what Punjabi Military has been doing in Afghanistan.
.
Moslims unite ...!
Death to greedy Kaafir Enemies of Moslims of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India and Kashmir, ... the Punjabis ...!
.
Following Voices in Pakistan have been voices of a few treasonous Indian Agents, right?
.
* The Voice of East Pakistani cause that resulted in formation of Bangladesh.
* The Voice of Mohajir Cause (they call themselves Mohajir so, we have every right to discriminate against them)
* The Voice of Baltistani cause
* The Voice of Saraiki cause (they were never State of Bahawalpur so, they have to remain as a part of Punjab though they do not speak Punjabi)
* The Voice of PushToon Cause (was voice Indian Agent Ghaffaar Khan and NWF Province was never a part of Afghanistan though everybody there speaks an Afghan Language).
* The Voice of Baluchi Cause. (Nobody owns Baluchistan and everybody there came from somewhere else so, we have to keep stealing Natural Resources of Baluchistan)
.
Only Punjabis have never committed treason in history of Pakistan though they were 'GhaDDaar' of Pakistan Movement because they had never wanted Pakistan. Punjab Assembly had told Viceroy that Jinnah does not represent them; Muslim League has never won more than one seat in Punjab and they do not want to be a part of Pakistan (Ref: 1. British Indian Govt. Documents, 2. All India Radio in 1940's, 3. All Newspapers of India).
Now the same Punjabi GhaDDaar keep deciding, who is 'GhaDDaar' of Pakistan again and again. .
.
Are they now going to start saying, they had not invaded Baluchistan in 1948 and have quashed last 4 rebellions there?
Were all those thousands of dead, ... a few Baluchis Sardars and Tribal Chieftains?
Were a million Bengalis, ... a few Awami League Leaders?
Were 15,000 Urdu Speaking, ... a few MQM Ghoondaas?
.
I am for 'rights of determination of all nations', not only Kashmiris. Lets have a Referendum in whole Pakistan also and see, who wants to remain enslaved of expansionist, cruel, corrupt, lying, cheating, backstabbing, bigots, the Punjabis, who's Military and Police has killed many times more Moslims in East Pakistan and West Pakistan than Indian Military.
Would have Afghans lost 2 million lives if Pak Military had not become Agent of USA in 1979 and then had not continued its meddling in Domestic Affairs of Afghanistan for the last 32 years?
There would have been no Pakistan left if India did, what Punjabi Military has been doing in Afghanistan.
.
Moslims unite ...!
Death to greedy Kaafir Enemies of Moslims of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India and Kashmir, ... the Punjabis ...!
From: Mirmoatazid <mirmoatazid@hotmail.com>
Let us not confuse the issue by verbosity.
Kashmir issue needs to solved. Whether it becomes Independent let it be.
It needs to be solved. Talking about referendum in other parts of Pakistan is either to confuse the Kashmir issue or shows the lack
of understanding of actual ground realities. Voice of a few Sardars and tribal chieftains is no reflection of people's aspirations.
Sent from my iPod
What good are big Army, Atomic Bombs, Missiles, Tanks and Jet Fighters for, on the sacrifice of Pakistanis not having even Basic Amenities of life like Water and Power, when they have failed to achieve their purpose for the last 64 years?
.
How do you know, Kashmiris in India would vote for servitude of Punjab like rest of Non Punjabis in Pakistan?
Do you know, according to a survey conducted last year 91% of Moslims of Indian Kashmir have voted for an Independent Kashmir, not a part of Pakistan?
.
Why we should not have a Referendum in PakhToon Khwah, Baluchistan, Sindh, Saraikistan and Northern Territories first to find out if people want freedom from cruel, unjust, discriminatory and corrupt Punjabi Rule of Pakistan or not?
.
If Purpose of big Army, Atomic Bombs, Missiles, Tanks and Jet Fighters was to defeat India and get Kashmir, why Pakistan does not declare war at India and whenever India comes close to end existence of Pakistan, she begs for help of USA?
Why USA had to save Pakistan in 1965, West Pakistan in 1971, in 1999 and then in 2002 if Pakistan had not begged USA for help?
Purpose of keep spending on Defense is only to keep Non Punjabi Pakistanis under Virtual Slavery, not else.
From: Mirmoatazid <mirmoatazid@hotmail.com>My dear Riaz KhanI do not recall you as a regular member of the forum , but welcome any ways.All wars with India are a consequence of double standards by India on Kashmir and states of Juagarh and Hyderabad .If there is no Kashmir issue there would be no requirement of keeping such a big army. Till this issue is alive we would be fighting with the Indians nowand then.It is civilian government today.Let it carry out a referendum on Kashmir. If the Pakistani awaam is ready to forego it's stand on Kashmir we would need not to keep a big army.Till such time Kashmir is with India why would they open a military front with Pakistan ?It is simple common sense !!RegardsMir Moatazid
Sent from my iPodBrigadier Sahib, With due respect, although I partially agree with you that Ayub Khan & Yukub Khan was well respected internationally but won't you agree that after useless war of 65 our priorities pertaining to economic progress was changed to developing war machinery which continues till today. India never attacked Pakistan whereas we initiated the first attack on India in 48 & continued till Kargil & learned nothing even after losing half of the country. How can you say that generals ruled this country better? How can a bloody general hang a elected PM on cooked up charges? Nobody there to question that how the defenders of the country lost half of the country without firing a single bullet? Sir, I can continue but you would get bored. Regards, RK
One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preparation. Arthur Ashe
From: mirmoatazid@hotmail.comKudos to Brig Saghar for his forthright comments.
Sent from my iPod..This is what Mr Khan said :Fully agree with you! Our genius generals know what is BEST for the country! Since Politicians are "Bloody Civilians" who know nothing about the world. Pakistan Zindabad aur Pakistani Fauj Paindabad.What good if any have we got from the governance of politicians so far ? Name a SINGLE achievement worthwhile. Stability in the country ? Law & order ? Economy ? Foreign Relations ? Politik with other countries ? Geometric progression in corruption ? All assets like Steel Mills, Railways , PIA , Power Supplies,Gas Supplies, ... drowned ? Trust of any country of the world on our govt ? Hollowed,nay,almost a failed state ? Respect to Judiciaries and implementation of its decisions ?For Chriss-sake,Ayub as President & Sahibzada Yaqub as FM enjoyed TOTAL respect from all over including from the President of USA ! No the Generals are no genious( & an alternate ) but they did not do as bad as of NOW by the politicians.And here is the last nail. The PM visits GB along with 72 members on 'holiday' ( the official meeting & hosting was for one hour,six members delegation ) & he declares in-flight on return that " we have to open NATO supplies"! Who used what 'jhurloo' ? Was there not a decision taken by the Parliament ? Where is the " ghairat " gone now ? Did we not ask for apology on Salala attack ? Were there not pre-conditions reecommended by the Parliament ?Shits !The Generals proved to be lesser evil compared to present day governing politicians who are satanic EVILS !... Saghar....On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 9:32 PM, ghulam yusuf <ghulam_yusuf@yahoo.com> wrote:
I am sure most of you must have read Professor Hoadbhoy's article. Here are some comments for your information please.
Ghulam Yusuf
--- On Mon, 7/5/12, S Turkman <turkman@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
This is not it. You see, there are not enough Colleges and Universities as good as Military Academy. In Military Academy, they teach, how to run a country. There are Departments for all Sciences, Business Management, Industrial Management, Engineering, Agriculture, Medicine, Pharmacy, Nuclear Science, Accountancy, Political Science, Foreign Services, Executive Training etc. This is why Salaries, Compensation and Retirement Package of Military Officers are so high and Pak Military Officers are the highest paid in the world compared to Per Capita Income ratio. This is why you see, more Military Officers working as Ambassadors, Presidents and other Top Executives of all Government Owned Industries, Government Owned Businesses etc. If they are Active Service Officers, they get to keep their Military Pay so, they can get 2 Pay Checks. If they are retired, yuck, just one Pay Check.
What can they do?
They are helpless but they sacrificing their lives for Pakistan selflessly. There are not enough Educated Pakistanis that can do those important jobs. We can not even find competent people to become even Prime Minister and President either so, they have to keep dismissing incompetent governments to run Pakistan better. Pakis are not educated, they keep electing incompetent people. What would poor illiterate Pakistanis do if there was no Military?
Only because of Military, Pakistan still exists otherwise, corrupt Politicians would have already sold it India. Even now, you can see, Zardari has opened trade with our Birth Enemy India. Don't you think, he is trying to sell Pakistan to India?
People should keep loving and respecting MojaahiDeen of Pak Military because if there was no strong Military, there would be no Pakistan. When your country is gone, where would you live?
From: RIAZ KHAN <khan0427@msn.com>
Fully agree with you! Our genius generals know what is BEST for the country! Since Politicians are "Bloody Civilians" who know nothing about the world. Pakistan Zindabad aur Pakistani Fauj Paindabad.
One important key to success is self-confidence. An important key to self-confidence is preparation. Arthur Ashe
Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 17:35:09 -0700
From: turkman@sbcglobal.net
Pakistan's current and aspiring political leaders can rarely give a public speech these days without invoking ghairat (honour) in some shape or form. Rather than present plans for reducing unemployment or providing electricity, they talk about shame and honour.Hoodbhoy always talks sense but nobody listens.
Pride was the biggest Culprit created by mankind and Honor is its oldest giant Son. Honor was pushed on Peasants to make them die for their Tribe, then City State Kings, then Kingdoms and then Empires.
Moslims are drenching with Honor and this is why they kill more than a million of their Daughters, Sisters, Aunts, Mothers and Wives every year to remain Proud. This is why Moslim Male Population in world is 39 million higher than Female Population though God creates 106 to 108 Females on every 100 Males in Human Specie.
From: RIAZ KHAN <khan0427@msn.com>
Sent: Sun, May 6, 2012 6:59:53 PM
Subject: Let us become — proudly — bayghairat
Let us become — proudly — bayghairat
A curse upon honour! It brings to a nation nought but militarisation, conquest, conflict, and the pain of war.![]()
The writer teaches physics and political science at LUMS. He holds a doctorate in physics from MIT
------------
The ultimate insult 'bayghairat' (without honour) is sometimes hurled onto an opponent. Adrenalin levels shoot even higher when they speak of America and "breaking the chains of slavery". The more morally and intellectually bankrupt a leader, the louder he thunders about qaumi ghairat (national honour).
This time-tested formula has worked wherever a people have been dispirited and dejected. For example, Hitler's meteoric rise to power, culminating in the most destructive war of history, came from appealing to the collective ghairat of the German nation and to the alleged cowardice and corruption of its rulers.
Hitler's famous Munich beer hall speeches were followed up in Mein Kampf: "A nation without honour will sooner or later lose its freedom and independence… a generation of poltroons is not entitled to freedom. He who would be a slave cannot have honour." Translated into Urdu, these lines are exactly what one hears on TV these days from men like Imran Khan and Hamid Gul.
The real implication of ghairat hit me for the first time some twenty years ago. A group of seven senior military officers, then studying operational matters at the National Defence College, had come to meet me at the physics department of Quaid-i-Azam University. Nuclear weapons were new at that time and, quite sensibly, they were keen to learn technical details from every available source. Although Pakistan did not officially acknowledge possessing such weapons then, the process of inducting them into the forces had already begun.
We had a good discussion on everything from blast radii and firestorms to electronic locks and PALS (Permissive Action Links). The officers took copious notes and appeared satisfied. As they prepared to leave I asked what circumstances, in their opinion,would warrant the use of nuclear weapons by Pakistan.
After some reflection one officer spoke up: "Professor," he assured me, "they shall be used only defensively if at all, and only if the Pakistan Army faces defeat. We cannot allow ourselves to be dishonoured." Around the table, heads nodded in agreement. Significantly, the calculus of destruction — that cities would be obliterated on both sides — was not what mattered. Ghairat did.
The same question put to Indian military officers would probably elicit the same answer. Historically, honour has driven armies to fight battles. Even as the officer spoke, my thoughts wandered to The Charge of the Light Brigade. During the Crimean War of 1854, wave after wave of honour-charged British soldiers rode their horses into the mouths of Russian guns which, of course, promptly mowed them down. Tennyson later immortalised the slain men in his famous poem: "All the world wonder'd. Honour the charge they made! Honour the Light Brigade."
The honour-driven Japanese samurai were even more extreme. As agents for various lords, shoguns, and the Emperor, their duties involved keeping peasants in line as well as fighting wars. Honest and dedicated, they were a model for ordinary Japanese. When a samurai lost honour, he could save his dignity only through hara-kiri (cutting open his belly).The last days of World War II turned samurais into suicide bombers who (unsuccessfully) flew planes into US aircraft carriers. Their actions ultimately brought the atom bomb to Japan.
A curse upon honour! It brings to a nation nought but militarisation, conquest, conflict, and the pain of war. On the other hand, where reason has defeated honour, the results have been spectacular. For example, in the ashes of WW II lay two thoroughly defeated and dishonoured nations: Germany and Japan. Had they remained stubbornly defiant, they would still be squatting there today. But, overcoming pride and honour, the vanquished accepted defeat and made peace with the victors. Today they are among the most advanced of nations, and major aid donors to Pakistan.
Vietnam is another amazing example. After 20 bitter years of war it won but was devastated. American B-52s had flattened its cities, while napalm and Agent Orange had devastated its villages and jungles. Yet, tossing aside honour and vengeance, Vietnam today reaches out to its former tormentors and invites their companies and investment. It is a country with a future.
Compare the bayghairat Vietnamese to Afghanistan's ghairat-obsessed people. Proud and unconquerable, they had earlier fought off the British and the Soviets; soon the Americans will too be gone. But, post-2014, what awaits them? Only more blood and sorrow, and yet another civil war.
Anthropologists tell us that honour is a concept that originated in herding societies because a tribal man's animals and women were protected from other tribesmen by a code of honour. But then, as tribes amalgamated and merged into the larger stream of civilisation, differing notions of honour led to strife. Traditional societies of the present era, in which honour plays a larger role, are relatively more violent than modern ones. The ease with which men kill their wives and daughters for sexual misconduct is but one example; there are scores of others.
Still, there are some in the West (see Sacred tribal values by J Gold & C Kammen, 1998), as well as here in Pakistan, who call for a return to tribal values. Perhaps one must hear them sympathetically because not all of what they say is bad. They hark back to the days when life was simple, good could easily be separated from bad, there was a spirit of community, and science had not made us into "One Dimensional Man" (in the words of the German philosopher Herbert Marcuse). They are nostalgic about what the world looked like centuries ago, all without having seen it or being aware of the downsides. Alas, they imagine false utopias.
A culture of honour is fine for the herders of goats and camels, or those who live in unpoliceable mountainous areas. But a culture of honour is disastrous for us, a nuclear-armed nation of 180 million people who want jobs, electricity, and the fruits of modernity.So, to hell with the fakery of meaningless honour! Instead, let us create a culture of law and reason, of compassion and tolerance. Let us become — proudly — bayghairat.
Published in The Express Tribune, May 7th, 2012.
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